That human industrial activities are the primary direct causation of the currently observed climate change is a scientific fact, proven beyond any reasonable doubt.
What you show is that there are not many conservatives in academia. The reason for that is manifold. It could be that they are forced out. It could be that their views are changed with higher learning and turn progressive. It could be that conservatives self-select to not go into academia.
If scientific investigation shows that there are many causes that have a relevant impact on "A", then saying that "A has multiple relevant and possible causes" is not hand-waving. It's stating the fact.
Hand-waving is to pearl clutchlingly throw out vague terms like "affirmative action" and "diversity statements" without properly stating what the mechanism is supposed to be and without providing any evidence that it is relevant in the last.
You know, polemic tribal whistle-blowing like you are doing. That's hand-waving.
>vague terms like "affirmative action" and "diversity statements"
And this is circling the wagons. Sorry but I can't believe someone who is intellectually honest is capable of writing such thing. You are either blatantly ignorant on this matter (and shouldn't be talking about it at all) or taking me for a ride.
It's preposterous that I have to explain how requiring a document in which you state allegiance to leftist ideals has an impact on the political makeup of admissions. I don't have enough frontal lobe damage to take you seriously.
Ok, so we establish that "Climate change could seem to have many causes, but educated people know that human activity is the proven cause of the majority of the change."
And now you have another situation where "there could be many causes for the change X".
And you think that because Climate Change followed that pattern above, X must necessarily have only one real cause, and that cause is your preferred pet theory.
Let's just talk about the recent (past 500 years) change in the insulation properties of the planet's atmosphere.
It's been in a constant burbling flux that has many factors, fires, volcanoes, etc all contribute to the steady level of churn.
The substantial change away from baseline is well recorded, tied back to sources by isotopes, and has a single cause - carbon dioxide by products from the combustion and release of previously sequestered carbon sources.
There's no doubt about that - there are multiple atmospheric libraries of gases from various parts of the world to back that up.
The data source sets for atmospheric makeup and ocean thermoclines are deeply tied into Cold War nuclear test monitoring and watching enemies, not some hippy dippy eco friendly new age hand wavyness.
What in my comment makes you think I'm disputing anthropogenic climate change? It's about the pattern of logic you are applying.
You seem to think that because Climate change is a messy topic with one real explanation, every other messy topic must also have a single true explanation. No, it doesn't work that way
Except we weren't talking about climate change. We were talking about you lying. You said one thing, and the link you provided did not support your claim.
If you make a claim, and the thing you say supports it does not support it, kinda sounds like lying. You trying to make this about climate change just proves even further that you know you are a liar.
> That doesn't show they were purged. There are many reasons their numbers declined.
Fun fact, what you're arguing is actually one of the reasons Charlie was murdered.
He notoriously said that the Civil Rights Act was a mistake. He specifically referred to Title VII which states even a neutral policy can be racism if it produces disparate impact[1] in practice. That is, if a neutral policy results in fewer black people being hired, that's evidence of racism. Charlie disagreed with that.
It's fun to see leftists argue the same when it comes to discrimination against right wing or centrist academics.
Well, a key difference is that race is an intrinsic immutable attribute, and political views aren't.
The paradox of tolerance is real. And more practically, it's impossible to guarantee representation of all viewpoints because there are an infinite number of them.
Care you define who makes up the "white race"? Or any other overly-broad category that typically gets bandied about as "race"?
From my perspective, as someone who is flexibly categorized as "white" or "latino", depending on whatever is most convenient for the categorizer, "race" is a remarkable fluid label. Most people can't even agree on what "race" folks of mixed ethnic heritage actually are.
Race is a social construct. There's nothing intrinsic or immutable about any social construct.
I think you know perfectly well my meaning in context of the comment thread I was replying to.
Yes, some people are mixed ethnicity or "white passing". Yes societal views changes ("Italian used to not be considered white"). At the end of the day, most people fall into one of the categories and don't get to change that.
> Please respond to the strongest plausible interpretation of what someone says, not a weaker one that's easier to criticize. Assume good faith.
But since you're insisting that this be spelled out: The categories are quite arbitrary, can vary, and can change. Yes, race is a social construct.
The point is the physical attributes that often define the categories cannot be significantly changed. One can't particularly make their own skin lighter, regardless of people with marginal skin tones being able to change other aspects about themselves to pass for a lighter category, or regardless of being able to go to a different community where one might be in the lighter category by default.
Compare with say how easy it is for someone with different political views to just hold their tongue when bureaucrats and true believers are waxing poetic about DEI, just as one had to hold their tongue when bureaucrats and true believers were waxing poetic about the virtues of mega golf or owning a boat, just as one might have to hold their tongue these days when bureaucrats and true believers are waxing poetic about the virtues of fascism.
(also can we stop using the word "conservative" as a lazy synonym? Applying that label to the Republican party after ~2020 is absurd)
> The categories are quite arbitrary, can vary, and can change. Yes, race is a social construct.
Obviously.
> Compare with say how easy it is for someone with different political views to just hold their tongue when bureaucrats and true believers are waxing poetic about DEI, just as one had to hold their tongue when bureaucrats and true believers were waxing poetic about the virtues of mega golf or owning a boat, just as one might have to hold their tongue these days when bureaucrats and true believers are waxing poetic about the virtues of fascism.
That seems very un-Australian; I'm unfamiliar with the concept of letting rank stupidity ride w/out having a poke at it, and a lot of people have boats, big, small, whatever.
Well I'm glad that you've apparently got a lower density of rank stupidity in Australia such that you've never been in situations where you've just had to let it wash over you while avoiding provoking it! In the US we've got an epidemic of it, quite obviously.
That's a cool boat/plane! I'm certainly not picking on people who are interested enough to build their own, or even just buy into doing something they themselves really enjoy. Rather I was referring to the previous managerial fashions in the US, before the DEI fashion took over.
The point about "conservative" wasn't directed at you, but all of the parent comments who did use it that way
Australia was once awash with "real British" people who constantly attempted to lord it over all - it really doesn't pay to let self denoted elites get away with that shit.
Modern Australia is seeing new waves of various behaviours, like all cultures these things ebb and flow - at our last elections the poor (particular) Christian conservative liberals that tried to ride the US wave of being mean to trans people and blaming big problems on a tiny tiny minority got hammered electorally for what was seen as un-Australian behaviour (giving everyone a fair go, regardless).
This time around the xenophobes are back stronger than ever riding a wave of flag draping nationalism not so subtlely hiding a grab bag of white supremacism and general X-phobia; we have
> I think you know perfectly well my meaning in context of the comment thread I was replying to.
No, I don't, and smugly insinuating I have some ulterior motive or whatever is, frankly, offensive.
I asked you a question because I didn't know what you meant, because you made a statement that was wildly ambiguous even with well-defined context.
> most people fall into one of the categories
One of... Which categories, exactly? This is why I'm asking. You keep making statements as if they're somehow inherently obvious, but... I can think of many different competing definitions of "race", so I'm trying to figure out which one you're using, or if you're even using one at all.
Not to those familiar with the history of the US Census racial classifications, given the number of times the categories shifted and changed it seems more than a little opinionated.
Ethnicity is mostly stable for most individuals, sure, but it too is hardly immutable - people do and have changed their countries, social cultures, and daily language usage- even to the point of struggling to think and talk in their primary birth languages.
> care to comment on the actual point of the parent comment thread?
Ahh, that "Charlie" (Kirk) had opinions, that US science is in chaos, that US use of the phrase "leftists" is always grating, that a two party Hotelling's law cluster feck inevitably resulting from US style elections is inadequate to politically represent a large population?
There's a lot going on here; one thing at a time is that race being an "an intrinsic immutable attribute" is all manner of horseshit.
What's horseshit is derailing a discussion about political bias in academia by quibbling over use of the word "race" when it wasn't even essential to the point.
People can't change between white and black skin. "Racism" exists in the US. Your gaslighting is embarrassing.
u/xdennis You think it's a fun fact that Charlie Kirk died? Crazy.
> It's fun to see leftists argue the same when it comes to discrimination against right wing or centrist academics.
I didn't argue anything.
I made a point to say that the link did NOT show a purge happened. It's funny because you are supporting my comment by literally providing another link as if to admit that the original one didn't support the claim.
But hey, pretend I said stuff. You're the one who thinks CK's death was fun.
I don't think there is surprise that higher learning is associated with progressivism. I think the surprise is that someone believes its indicative of a giant conspiracy to exile conservative professors.
> I don't think there is surprise that higher learning is associated with progressivism.
This is such a wildly elitist take. There's nothing intrinsically progressive about education, and to just declare so as fact is an excellent example of the exact kind of hostility that keeps non-progressives from being at home in higher education.
> I think the surprise is that someone believes its indicative of a giant conspiracy to exile conservative professors.
Is it really surprising that people who disagree with someone's politics would let that bleed over into their assessment of that person's professional abilities?
We literally see this everywhere! People use a person's politics to discredit other aspects of their being all the time.
Conservative professors are a rare breed in academia because non-conservatives in academia make it a very hostile workplace environment.
There is a reason why a lot of progressive ideas worldwide originated in and spread from universities, often time resulting in student revolts/rebellions. Throughout history, starting in 1202, academia was always a source for new ideas, usually non establishment: https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Student_activism&...
> just declare so as fact is an excellent example of the exact kind of hostility that keeps non-progressives from being at home in higher education.
My friend, I simply stated a conclusion that is very commonly accepted, including by conservatives (hints: populism, religion, gender roles). You're welcome to dispute it but instead you declare it 'hostile'. If conservatives think this is offensive then I'll add that to the list of reasons they seem to avoid scenarios where their viewpoints are challenged (because that's how academia works).
> Is it really surprising that people who disagree with someone's politics would let that bleed over into their assessment of that person's professional abilities?
It certainly can. That's a long way from a coordinated conspiracy. And there are layers of insulation like wanting talent regardless of personality and avoiding legal issues.
> Conservative professors are a rare breed in academia because non-conservatives in academia make it a very hostile workplace environment.
Like stealing their lunch or lighting them up in a reply-all or what are we talking about here? Note I'm not freaking out that you "just declared something as a fact".
> My friend, I simply stated a conclusion that is very commonly accepted, including by conservatives (hints: populism, religion, gender roles).
People commonly accept that God exists, too, all across the political spectrum. That doesn't mean he actually does exist, though. "Commonly accepted" does not mean "is true".
> It certainly can. That's a long way from a coordinated conspiracy. And there are layers of insulation like wanting talent regardless of personality and avoiding legal issues.
No one in this thread is claiming a "coordinated conspiracy", just years and years of ever increasing political bias amongst faculty at universities in the U.S.
C'mon, implicit bias training is supposed to teach you about how the negative impacts of persistent, low-grade bias accumulate over time, right?
> Like stealing their lunch or lighting them up in a reply-all or what are we talking about here? Note I'm not freaking out that you "just declared something as a fact".
Like not inviting them to conferences, social gatherings, networking opportunities, etc.
Again, decades of small bias add up. I mean, isn't that the entire thesis of things like "systemic racism"? Why would that not also be true in other areas?
Don't get me wrong, I believe theories like systemic racism have merit and are largely true. I just acknowledge that, if it's true that being black in America is an inherent disadvantage due to years of accumulated bias, it's probably also true that being conservative in academia is also an inherent disadvantage, due to the same mechanism.
All that being said, way to double down on the elitism!
Correct. And if you asserted the existence of a god based on this common notion I wouldn't scream that it's religous hostility.
Of course, dieties are not a great example here since they're based purely on people's superstitions.
> No one in this thread is claiming a "coordinated conspiracy"
From above: "Conservatives have been basically purged from academia over the last 30 years"
Most political purges I'm familiar with aren't "oops, implicit bias!"
At the start of this I said: "I think the surprise is that someone believes its indicative of a giant conspiracy to exile conservative professors." If you agree with this could have saved yourself a lot of trouble.
> Like not inviting them to conferences, social gatherings, networking opportunities, etc.
We're talking about adults, right? In any event, it would be interesting to see some stats or hear some anecdotes on the matter.
> Again, decades of small bias add up.
Does it? Seems far more likely to settle on some sort of median. It's just that the median is considered 'leftist' because it embraces the scientific method while most conservative platforms need to deny evolution, climate change, etc.
> it's probably also true that being conservative in academia is also an inherent disadvantage, due to the same mechanism.
> At the start of this I said: "I think the surprise is that someone believes its indicative of a giant conspiracy to exile conservative professors." If you agree with this could have saved yourself a lot of trouble.
You were clearly implying that the person you were responding to was saying it was some kind of conspiracy. I'm not buying this sudden retcon.
> We're talking about adults, right? In any event, it would be interesting to see some stats or hear some anecdotes on the matter.
Thats... literally what you were replying to in the aforementioned post! Here's the link again, in case you forgot: https://www.aei.org/articles/partisan-professors/ It's literally a lack of diversity, just like there used to be an equally stark lack of diversity in tech, etc.
I'm almost positive you're just trolling at this point.
I mean it's right there in black and white. Yes, we've gone on a few tangents since then.
> literally what you were replying to in the aforementioned post!
No it's the AEI complaining that there aren't enough conservatives in higher education. There aren't any stats on summer barbecues MAGA adjunct professors weren't invited to. There aren't any anecdotes about an infowarrior instructor missing out on networking events. Just look at the quoted words above my request to see what they are in reference to.
Conservatives spread propaganda about woke universities -> conservative kids are less likely to go. Do this for decades and you end up in the situation we're in.
Either that or conservatives are just stupider and less likely to be academics; which is, in my opinion, more likely than your hypothesis about grand conspiracy.
And it's more than the self selection force of conseratives being too frightened that college will change their worldview. Take a liberal and a conservative with equivalent postgraduate degrees. Now offer them their choice of a faculty position or a C-suite career track. Based on the values that define their respective ideologies, is it a coin toss for which path either chooses?
Or even that the categories are shifting. People who hold perfectly reasonable classical Conservative viewpoints are now excluded from the Republican party. An institution failing to shift more right doesn't make it biased.
> The lack of diversity among professors is problematic for both education and research, ostensibly the overriding purposes of universities.
I basically did a spit-take here. Lack of diversity is suddenly--and only--a problem when it doesn't include conservatives.
The funny thing is that racial and cultural diversity is higher amongst faculty than the general population. For decades America has attracted the brightest and highest-achieving college students and researchers from around the world, and those people eventually get faculty positions and advance their careers. It has gotten to the point that we hear people (usually conservatives) complain that some fields are dominated by non-white people.
And shock, as it turns out, American conservative viewpoints are actually a minority in the world. If higher education were actually representative of world population, 1/5 would be Chinese, 1/5 would be Indian, 1/5 European, and only 1/20 would even be American. If we were generous and say that half of America is conservative (it's not), then only 1/40 would be an American conservative. Most people in the world are not American conservatives. This is just a fact. They say that reality has a liberal bias. For the record, I don't believe it has a liberal bias, because American liberalism is just a weird grab bag of outposts on the cultural war front, but reality absolutely does not support a rightwing view.
We hear conservatives whine and moan about diversity exactly when it suits them, and we've all seen just exactly how they feel about diversity.
It’s a pretty commonly repeated theory amongst far right / reactionary “thought leaders”. They call it the “Long March Through the Institutions”. I think the comment you were responding to was ironically referencing it.
> To extend the base of the student movement, Rudi Dutschke has proposed the strategy of the long march through the institutions: working against the established institutions while working within them, but not simply by 'boring from within', rather by 'doing the job', learning (how to program and read computers, how to teach at all levels of education, how to use the mass media, how to organize production, how to recognize and eschew planned obsolescence, how to design, et cetera), and at the same time preserving one's own consciousness in working with others.
I'm going to go out on a limb and say that a German student activist's definitionally anodyne proposal to engage with society and barely referenced in the decades since has probably been coopted more than a little to concoct a new boogeyman for the right wing.
Yes, often one wing of political thought leaders will adopt terms and ideas from the other wing to serve as a foundation for their theories. I never suggested that the term itself was invented by someone on the right, merely that it’s a term widely used to describe the very specific idea of a calculated political effort to expel conservatives from academia. Ironically, Rudi’s ambitions were much more grand than simply transforming academia, he wanted to transform society.
Anyway, what you presented is not a “gotcha”, despite the fact that I’ve heard it a million times when engaging with right wing “intellectuals”. It’s still a conspiracy theory.
You misunderstand, the idea of the “Long March Through the Institutions” is that innocent conservative intellectuals are the victims of a central, coordinated campaign for them to be expelled from academia in order to transform academia into an institution that serves leftwing agendas. It’s an explicit rejection that such a transformation could occur naturally, and can fairly be considered a conspiracy theory by the mainstream specifically because it meets Barkun’s criteria for conspiracy theories:
- nothing happens by accident
- nothing is as it seems
- everything is connected
I don't really buy that idea, but like the one black guy at the Country Line Dance, you get the strong vibe you are not in the right place, and kind of just want to leave, regardless of how people are upfront treating you.
The people you’re talking to don’t understand why you would ever want to have the Wrong Kind of Person around an institution as sacred as the university
More likely that conservatives turned liberal once the right went all in on anti-intellectualism.
Of course the real question is: what does conservative even mean any more? The joining of Falwell and Reagan fucked both conservatism and evangelical Christianity.
Yep, it's at least partly this. I watched a lot of "moderate" academics become "liberal" after Trump's first election.
If you're a scientist by principles and a moderate by political views, and the right-wing party comes out in opposition to science, well, it's fair that you might then join the "pro-science party". Being pro-science becomes a liberal position.
So it's not that conservatives were "purged" from the ranks of academia.
Any citations on this?